Dear Geoffrey, >> If thoughts just popping up and i am not willing or doing the thoughts .. they just pop up and create their story without my active interference..... is that EOM? or should i willingly shut them off? << If they are indeed thoughts, then that is not Emptiness of Mind. In the state of Emptiness, the mind only perceives, which is difficult to explain. It is "above" thought. If you haven't looked at Rawn's Self-Healing Archaeous, then I suggest that you do. http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Archaeous-Links.html It will help you to understand what state of mind you are trying to achieve, Lesson 3 specifically. You can always simply listen to or read the lesson and get a better understanding of the "hierarchy" (if you will) of the mind and mental body, without working through the first two to get to the third ;) But to *do* the third you need to *do* the first two. Mundane Awareness (Earth) Emotion and Presonal Significance (Water) Perception of Ideas and Thoughts (Air) Direct Perception of Essential Meaning (Fire) The Emptiness of Mind exercise is related to the Fire region of the Mental body and the direct perception of essential meaning. This is better understood on the decent from the Fire back to the Earth and the integration of all four. When you really start to go deeper into the Vacancy of Mind exercise, the understanding of what is occuring during that state becomes more apparent. >From what you said, it seems that you are more in the Air region than in the Fire region. The thoughts are less (what's the word...) "sentences" and more "words". Different from what you are used to, but thoughts none the less. Your mind truly has to be empty of thoughts for the exercise to be complete. If you are having trouble with this exercise, or understanding what you are trying to achieve, I'd suggest that you give the Archaeous a try. It can't hurt :) All Will Go Well, --Alan