Dear Geoffrey, >> If thoughts just popping up and i am not willing or doing the thoughts .. they just pop up and create their story without my active interference..... is that EOM? or should i willingly shut them off? << That's somewhere between EOM and the passive observation. You're getting close but there's one more step to be taken before you reach a true EOM state. The difference is that with EOM you turn your mind completely away from those under-the-surface thoughts to such an extent that they don't register in your awareness at all. This is different than willfully shutting them off. This is a matter of *turning away from them and completely ignoring them*. Focus your awareness upon the emptiness instead of upon the thoughts. My best to you, :) Rawn Clark 03 Nov 2003 rawnclark@... rawn@... http://www.ABardonCompanion.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BardonPraxis http://E.webring.com/hub?ring=arionthebardonwe