The relationship between the Zen teaching of no-mind through paradox, and the path of will of Bardon had left me a little unsure which is the most appropriate and direct way to "empiness of mind". Generally I believe there is a connection, just as there is a connection between Magic and Mysticism, stated in the Bardon material, but for me the problem is which type is most direct and relevent? For instance a classic Zen proverb, "Stop talking, stop thinking, and there is nothing you will not understand, Return to the root and you will find its meaning, Pursue the Light, and you will lose its source... There is no need to seek truth, only stop having views." SENG-TS'AN/SOSAN (D.600) This approach is not against the mind, it's merely stating that no matter what you do inwardly or outwardly is only taking you away from "that which is". For me Bardons approach is useful but not essential. "If you work on your mind with your mind, How can you avoid an immense confusion?" SENG-TS'AN/SOSAN (D.600) For me, the Zen approach is right, as it is simply saying "that which is". Everything else is secondary. IOX137 aka TimA