Re: Formal Evocation vs. Mental Wandering

["peter_reist" <peter_reist@...>]

NKKA,

No offence is taken. Personally, at this point in my training I find 
it rather hard to take offence even when an offence is ment.

However, I haven't exctly completed step 8. My own progress with 
regards to Hermetics and Kabbalah didn't exactly follow the typical 
line of progression as I started with the basic work of KTQ when I 
was working on step 4 in IIH. At which point divine providence did 
everything but throw the kitchen sink at me to start doing some more 
advanced work of kabbalah.

Once I started to do this work, especially the elemental accumulation 
within the four elemental regions, in addiiton to the fire pole of 
KTQ, my perception of the world exploded and expanded to the edge of 
the universe and my progress went into overdrive. And I have 
progressed formally through to the work of step 6 in IIH.

All that being said, I have to say that yes, I can find the answer 
myself through a variety of mediums: via contact with my great 
guardian genious, by contemplating the question at hand and switching 
back and forth between VOM and OP, uttering the cosmic letter 'E' to 
induce a trance that leads to a revalationg upon one matter or 
another.

Now if I'm able to find the answer to my question on my own, then why 
do I bother asking these questions to Rawn? For a variety of reasons, 
ranging from the fact that it is in my nature to question everything, 
my own conclusions especially, the fact that occasionally my greater 
guardian genious is not overly forthcoming with providing answers to 
certian questions, the fact that it's easier to bug Rawn than my 
greater guardian genious with questions, and the fact that this 
bantering back and forth between Rawn and I provides food for thought 
for other scholars working upon the path that they would not if I 
didn't ask these questions.

On some level, what the conversations that Rawn and I have been 
having are a lot like two scholars of English literature talking 
about some obscure, minor character in one of Shakespeare's plays. 
The main difference between Rawn and I is that I just have my general 
B.A. whereas Rawn has a Ph.D. and the experience of Northorpe Frye, 
one of the great English scholars of the last century. While we both 
have an understanding of the answer to the question (though my 
understanding is rather shakey at times. I mean, sure, I can do the 
work of getting in contact with a spirit, merging with it's 
consciousness, condensing the light down to a certian density that 
would provide a sutible atmosphere for the spirit and so forth. But 
that doesn't necessarily mean that I know why I'm able to do this 
all, nor how I manage to do it. Strange as that may seem.) the 
perspective that both of us are coming from are radically different 
in some places, and quite close in others. As such, by conversing 
with each other we are garnering from the different perspective and 
experiences of another. 

Also, actually being able to put these rather complex issues down 
into a written format is quite difficult due to the fact that these 
things usually need to be experienced directly through the direct 
perception of essential meaning. This forces me to deal with the 
direct perception of essential meaning to depen my understanding of 
the topic in such a manner that I can express it in a written format. 
Which is something that I have found quite benificial to my own 
practice.

Also, I know all too well that Rawn also believes that it is very 
rare that questions of an advanced nature will be posed after the 
scholar has truely gotten past the work of step 4 due to the fact 
that by that point they have developed some of the most basic tools 
for further progression along the hermetic path. The ability to 
puzzle out any question that is confusing them being one of the 
primary ones.

I also know all too well that there is a limit to what Rawn is 
willing to talk about in public or in private with regards to 
Hermetics, Kabbalah, or evocation. If I cross that line, I know that 
Rawn will respond by saying, in a far more tactful manner, "Bugger 
off and figure it out for yourself." :)

Love and Live well,
Peter Reist

--- In BardonPraxis@yahoogroups.com, "magesmail" <magesmail@y...> 
wrote:
> Hello.
> First of all , let me state that I am NOT trying to offend anyone. 
Iam
> just curious . But wouldn't a hermetic magician who has finished 
step
> 8 (which peter seems to have, since he mentions elsewhere that he 
has
> started kabbala work) be able to answer such questions by a process 
of
> intution /mental wandering ? again PLEASE don't be offended . NO
> offense meant .
> I am enjoying this discussion as much as anyone else here .
> Regds, NKKA
> 
> 
> --- In BardonPraxis@yahoogroups.com, "peter_reist" 
<peter_reist@y...>
> wrote:
> > Dear Rawn,
> > 
> > >>>The ceremonial regalia is like training wheels on a bicycle. 
They 
> > serve to support the magician's focus and their will as they 
learn 
> > the Art of evocation. Eventually, they become unnecessary.<<<
> > 
> > Then, of course, the question becomes: does the initiate who has 
> > completed step eight really need such training wheels?
> > 
> > Also, why does Bardon not talk about the invocation of a spirit 
into 
> > the structure of the mental body? While such a working would be 
> > potentially dangerous for the untrained initiate, for the trained 
> > magician couldn't it be something more along the lines of what 
Bardon 
> > talked about when he mentioned about pnuma transference at the 
end of 
> > Step 4?
> > 
> > Love and Live well,
> > Peter Reist