Re: Does Water give form to Fire ? - complement to my question

["forestofsymbols" <forestofsymbols@...>]

NB,

> <<It might help if rather than thinking of these
> things in the abstract, you find some experiences to
> tie them to, to make them real for yourself. >>
> 
> Can you elaborate, please ? I'm interested in all
> possible ways to improve my meditations on the
> Elements - and the questions they raise. Thanks in
> advance.

I can elaborate only a very little. I'm not so far on this path 
myself. 

It seems to me that the first rule of esoteric study is to accept 
nothing, verify everything. We could talk all day about cats, their 
shape, color, disposition and habits, but nothing will teach you as 
much about cats as actually seeing one, hearing one, interacting with 
one. When you speak of the Element Fire, what do you mean? Have you 
seen it, interacted with it, felt it, known it? What experiences have 
you had, physically, emotionally, and mentally could you connect with 
the vague concept of Fire? For me, Fire is hot and expanding, 
energetic. You can light a candle and watch it, feel it, think about 
it, observe yourself and see what feelings and thoughts it inspires. 
You can sit in the sun on a summer day, feel it, the heat on the 
skin, the jumpiness in the mind, the muscular tension and discomfort 
that comes. Watch yourself when you grow angry, you can actually feel 
the heat flash through your body and cloud your mind. All of these 
things will give you actual first hand experiences that you can draw 
on and tie to the abstract symbol of "Fire." For me, this is all a 
corollary from the exercises of the first step, namely thought 
observation. 

Hope this helps.

mj

--- In BardonPraxis@yahoogroups.com, Newbieonekenhobby 
<newbieonekenhobby@y...> wrote:
> Dear forestofsymbols,
> 
> Many thanks for your message.
> 
> <<it sounds like you might be confusing the elements
> (fire, water, earth, air, and ether) and the levels
> (physical, astral, mental). >>
> 
> I re-read my message, and I understand your feeling
> :-). English is not my mother tongue (as you may have
> guessed :-) and the following sentence, particularly,
> could have been written more carefully :
> -----
> does the "shaping" of the raw energy issued by Fire
> take place at the Water level ?
> -----
> What I meant was simply "is the raw energy issued by
> Fire shaped by Water".
> In spite of my clumsly wording, I don't have the
> feeling I made a confusion between Elements and Planes
> (...although physical corresponds to the Earth
> Element, astral to the Water Element, Mental to the
> Fire Element etc., ... and knowing that Astral is an
> intermediary between Mental and Physical. Aarghh.
> Just wanted to ensure I confused everybody :-) :-)
> 
> Given the correspondance just mentionned above, I was
> tempted to answer myself "yes" to my own question
> (does water give form to Fire). But I'm still not
> sure.
> 
> The question I asked is valid for all planes, not only
> the physical one.
> 
> <<It might help if rather than thinking of these
> things in the abstract, you find some experiences to
> tie them to, to make them real for yourself. >>
> 
> Can you elaborate, please ? I'm interested in all
> possible ways to improve my meditations on the
> Elements - and the questions they raise. Thanks in
> advance.
> 
> Greetings
> NB
> 
> 
> --- forestofsymbols <forestofsymbols@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Others may disagee, but it sounds like you might
> > be confusing the 
> > elements (fire, water, earth, air, and ether) and
> > the levels 
> > (physical, astral, mental). Further, it seems that
> > you are also 
> > confining the element "earth" to the physical level
> > alone. It might 
> > help if rather than thinking of these things in the
> > abstract, you 
> > find some experiences to tie them to, to make them
> > real for yourself. 
> > This was my own mistake as I've recently discovered.
> > 
> > mj
> > 
> > 
> > --- In BardonPraxis@yahoogroups.com,
> > Newbieonekenhobby 
> > <newbieonekenhobby@y...> wrote:
> > > Oops. Here are a few sentences I forgot to
> > include. 
> > > 
> > > I know that the actual *solidification* ("let it
> > be
> > > done") takes place at the Earth Element -
> > > electromagnetic level.
> > > 
> > > My question is not about this level:
> > solidification is
> > > distinct from shaping IMHO. My question is really
> > > about the original "Intention/Design" : does the
> > > "shaping" of the raw energy issued by Fire take
> > place
> > > at the Water level ?
> > > 
> > > May sound confusing (and confused) to the other
> > > students. I apologize ...but I still need to know,
> > > because till now I believed that Water was
> > > "shrinking", so to speak, something already formed
> > and
> > > solidified at another level, but I did not imagine
> > > that it was taking a role in the shaping process.
> > > 
> > > Ok. I'll stop worsening my case :-)
> > > 
> > > Many thanks
> > > NB
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- newbieonekenhobby <newbieonekenhobby@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > In Rawn's comments on IIH, I read in the "Theory
> > > > Section": 
> > > > 
> > > > <<The magnetic Fluid *gives form* to the
> > Electric
> > > > force>> (emphasis 
> > > > mine). 
> > > > 
> > > > Taking this literally, meaning that the creation
> > > > deriving from the 
> > > > Electric force takes actual shape through the
> > > > influence of the 
> > > > magnetic Fluid, is it possible to infer that
> > Water
> > > > gives form to 
> > > > Fire ? 
> > > > 
> > > > a) Superficially this looked obvious to me given
> > the
> > > > attributes of 
> > > > the respective Elements. But suddenly I was not
> > sure
> > > > this 
> > > > was "licit".
> > > > 
> > > > b) Since *Water* somewhat looks like an
> > > > instantiation of the 
> > > > *Magnetic* Fluid or its concrete manifestation
> > > > (sorry - I don't find 
> > > > the words), and the equivalent for Fire, the
> > > > deduction seems logical 
> > > > from that angle also
> > > > At the same time, since they are not at the same
> > > > level, and given 
> > > > the explicit additional attributes of Water and
> > > > Fire, I was not sure 
> > > > this was authorized.
> > > > 
> > > > What is correct ? Or am I "pedaling besides the
> > > > bicycle" :-) ? Or 
> > > > should I wait till level 8 :-( ?
> > > > 
> > > > Many thanks.
> > > > NB
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
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