Dear Stu, >> I think is is a different thing, though. EOM, as I understand it, requires a willing and a doing. (Maybe "holding" might be a better word, and holding off.) It does not just come to you, doesn't "happen". The state I refer to is devoid of holding and also doing. Some initial willing is required, though. Thoughts are not held, not stopped, not observed (a doing). Life is just... happening. I would describe is as a strong opposite to busybody-ism. Or maybe I misunderstood EOM? I see it requiring a lot of will and effort. << This is a common mis-conception of EOM and the one which makes achieving EOM difficult for many folks. True EOM is a completely passive state although it does require "some initial willing" to *attain*. Within the EOM, there is BEing and perceiving, but there is no 'doing' or 'willing' in the mundane sense. It can become an *active* state but this activity is not the same as mundane 'willing' and 'doing'. If you are willing and doing then your mind is not empty of thought. :) My best to you, :) Rawn Clark 02 Nov 2003 rawnclark@... rawn@... http://www.ABardonCompanion.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BardonPraxis http://E.webring.com/hub?ring=arionthebardonwe