Dear Rawn, > "Models", mathematical or otherwise, are irrelevant when you > *know*, when you are at one with the Universe and when you act > *as* the Universe. I understand, but what if the person developing that mathematical model is not interested in initiation, nor is he able to know/act as Unity; if bright enough, would such a physicist be able to make such a limited model of, for instance, just the astral? The reason I'm asking is not because it is a path of work I'm personally interested in, I'm more than content with Initiation :), but the issue worries me - if the answer is positive, it would mean that there is a way to circumvent the natural prerequisites for utilizing above-physical forces, even if only in a limited and not- really-understanding way. The process of initiation should instill in a person responsibility and understanding, while a scientist does not have these qualities. Also, thanks for confirming my thought regarding Ayin. Sincerely, Daniel Gutmanas